“Is Heaven’s Fallacy A Corporate Trap?” Brief Summary of Show:
Are we caught in a “gambler’s” fallacy or “heaven’s” fallacy when it comes to interaction with people around us, or even in our interactions in the workplace? In this Inspired Action episode coaches Christopher and Kyle discuss what a “gambler’s” or “heaven’s” fallacy is, how people get caught in these cognitive distortions, how it applies in the workplace, and offer some tips on how not to get caught into these mentalities.
Calls to Action:
Tell us your “inspired stories” stories by visiting www.InspiredActionPodcast.ca
Christopher Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/career-life-coach-christopher-lawrence/
Kyle Kalloo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-kalloo/
Change My Life Coaching | Strategic Leader LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/6446498/admin/
“Is Heaven’s Fallacy A Corporate Trap?” Transcript:
I’m an older millennial, right? And I look at this and we were told that our generation is ungrateful, unloyal, uncommitted on this, on that and whatever.
And I’ll tell you why. It’s not that we’re not loyal, that’s not what it is. It’s that loyalty needs to go both ways. And I think for a lot of things that it did, but we watched our parents work their asses off.
And get let go because they made too much money.
[Narrator] Is the thought of being imperfect keeping you from taking action? Welcome to Inspired Action for Imperfect Humans. Each week, we give you real life stories and thought-provoking research that inspires your soul to live a more fulfilled life through your own actions. From the heart of Calgary Canada, here are your hosts, award winning coaches, Christopher Lawrence and Kyle Kalloo.
Are we live?
[both] We are live. We are live at one point, yep.
I want to ask you a question.
When you hold the door open for somebody, do you want them to say thank you?
Um, that’s a trick question. And let me explain why.
It was a trick question actually.
Was it? Okay. If it was a trick question-
Cause I was going to ask it as, do you expect them to say thank you? But I knew if I used the word expect, your answer would have been different. So I asked if you wanted them to say thank you because Mother Theresa is on the line.
Yeah, yeah, ’cause my answer, if it was expected, it was no, right? That’s like an automatic. I do not expect it. However, I think wanted and need is such an interesting word on these types of things. So, I wanna say would I like it if they did say, you know, thank you? Sure, yes. I mean, I know you’ll be shocked to hear this Christopher, but I’m human, right? And of course I would.
I would, well, I, yeah, I would like for that to happen. So if that’s under the category want, sure. Do I need them to, no. So that’s why I said it was a little bit of a trick question because in my mind, I hope they say it. Sometimes I don’t even notice it until they actually say thank you. ‘Cause I’m maybe more times, more often than not someone usually doesn’t say it. So.
Hmm. Really? I would say that more often than not, they do say it, but yeah, it’s interesting. I don’t, I do think that I, I would like somebody to say thank you.
Okay. I think it’s the right thing to do. I think that it’s a form of mutual validation. I think when somebody doesn’t say thank you, it, there can be lots of reasons, so I don’t want to assume that it’s arrogance or entitlement because I don’t know, like maybe they’re, maybe they don’t have a voice, like maybe they can’t speak in or whatever. And sometimes people get wrapped up in their heads, you know? And so, so they’re, maybe they’re not focused or maybe they don’t speak English. And so they don’t want to engage in a conversation because they’re insecure about it, or maybe they’re introverted or, or like have social anxiety or whatever, right? So, so I, I think I do want it though, like, like it’s, it’s that human interaction that kind of says, oh, we’ve had a nice interaction and everybody feels better.
Speaking of that, I have a question for that, is another question, but I’m going to say something here. I find the older generations do most more often than not, I don’t think I really had a situation where they didn’t actually, but I’m sure someone did, but more often than not, they actually say thank you. But here’s what’s interesting with what you just said as well. I find when they say thank you, they’re deliberate about it. Like they turn and look at me and say, “Thank you.”
What are you talking older generation? ‘Cause I would say that those, like, I would actually disagree with that statement when I see like between 50 and maybe like 65, 70 do, I’m stereotyping here. I find particularly if it’s men, they don’t say thank you.
Really? Yeah. 70, 70 something up for me.
Oh for sure.
Okay, for sure. For sure. Yeah. So you’re talking like your age.
Totally, and I find they deliberate, they literally turn and look at me
I agree with that, totally. And say, “Thank you.” And you know, and they’ll make a little small comment. So here’s what my question to you now is after that is what happens when they don’t say thank you?
It feels like it’s an unfinished transaction. Like, like it feels like it’s an unfinished transaction. Like it feels, for me it feels like there’s something missing, like that the transaction wasn’t completed, the little bit of friendliness, but the reason why I’m asking about this is because I came across this very, very interesting term. So, you’ve heard of gambler’s fallacy, right?
So gambler’s fallacy is like, when you keep putting money in the slot machine thinking it’s going to pay out and it doe- Bitch, why’s it so funny?
Why is it so fucking funny?
No, I don’t laugh much, but what I do boo,
What’s so funny.
So right now in Calgary, there’s so many lotteries. Let me just digress one second, please don’t, stick a pin, Just hold your thought on that. So right now in Calgary, there’s a lot of lotteries, right? And everyone’s trying to make their money back and especially groups that do other things, right? So there’s the home lottery. There’s the hospital lottery. There’s foothills lottery. There’s Crow child lottery. There’s anything that can talk about a lottery, there’s vaccine lottery, right?
So there’s always.
The great outdoor vaccine lottery now.
The stampede has this additional lottery, chase the ace or chest ace, I don’t know what it is. So I apologize for that.
Chase the ace. Yeah, so for the last two days, I was like, you know what? Low risk, 20 bucks. You know what I mean? I did it. And the pot got even built bigger. It’s like a million, even though you’re getting like 25% of it. So yesterday I thought, wow, it’s over a millions. I’m like, I’m just going to up the ante a little bit, get a little bit more. So I got like $50 in or whatever. So this morning I saw my tickets, I didn’t win anything, so I’m like fine, but this morning, it’s like even more than that and I said to myself in that moment, don’t do it. Because if I did do it, I’d be playing in to the gambler’s fallacy.
Because the thought was, “Oh my God, the stakes are high, and maybe this is the one and this.” Right?
And that’s what I happened. So when you said it,
I thought you were reading my mind.
I was reading your mind. Yeah. So for folks that don’t know, the Calgary stampede is, it’s called the greatest outdoor show on earth. It’s a bit of a cowboy to do. They’ve got an exhibition, they’ve got a trade show, they’ve got like tons of performers. They’ve got a midway with food and fair and rights and all that stuff. So, you know, and it’s, they’re keeping it pretty small this year. They haven’t had it in, you know, during the COVID times, but they’re giving it small. So anyway, this is also an opportunity for charities to come forward,
And kind of do their thing. So they do all these lotteries, you know, to raise money for the charity. So, so yeah, that’s what Kyle’s talking about. So that is an example of gambler’s fallacy, right? Eventually it’s going to pay out, right? You keep putting money in the slot machine. Eventually it has to pay out. So then people kind of get kind of hooked into that dopamine response and the fantasy.
Totally. So gambler’s fallacy is a cognitive distortion. So for those that don’t know, a cognitive distortion is like an exaggerated or an irrational thought pattern. And it’s, it’s it comes on in different kinds of states in your psychological place. It tends to, like in your psychological space. It tends to create things like anxiety, depression, fear of missing out, that kind of thing. And so people know cognitive distortions most often when we hear like don’t use the word should or but. Cognitive distortions are like the word can’t or things like black and white thinking, is a cognitive distortion. It’s either this or this when actually, it’s more likely somewhere in between. Right, so that’s what a cognitive distortion is. And so heaven’s fallacy is also a cognitive distortion. And so the literal definition of this is that if we work hard and do right things on earth, we will, we will eventually get into heaven.
Okay, so there’s a connection to that.
So there is a connection to that, right? So it’s like, you do all this good work, but heaven’s fallacy can be interpreted in a way for like just good behavior. So like, let’s say you hold 10 doors open for people, and then you start to say to yourself, but nobody’s holding a door open for me. Nobody’s being kind to me.
Right. I give and give and give and give, and nobody’s being kind to me. I just thought that was really interesting.
It really is because I think there’s times, I mean, and that has happened to me as well, where you’re just like, “God, I wish sometimes I could just get a break.” Right? You know, or I wish sometimes, this thing. But I do see it in lots of people as well. Just, it seems to be sometimes that’s the first place they go, right? Is just like, “Oh, I can’t even get a break. Look at all the things I’ve done.” And you bring that stuff up. I was talking to a client that was a, we were in a coaching session and you know, where he was, he needs to be give some feedback to someone on his team. And he says, every time he mentions about them being late all the time, they bring up, “But what about all the times I was, you know, I stay late.” Right? Instead of making the connection about, okay, it’s about being here on time and not necessarily about making up for it when you’re, you know, here late. Not saying that we don’t appreciate that, not saying that didn’t have its place, but it’s always, it’s just, so when you just said that, I just think about that piece around, but I give this, how come I can’t get that, right? And so, you know, is that the fallacy or is that entitlement? I don’t know, like.
See, this is the thing, this is where I struggle with this because I look at the sentence. Like, I think this is a really good thing to focus on. I think Heaven’s fallacy is really, really important to focus on. I think Kyle, you and I, and I don’t mean this from a place of arrogance or righteousness, we will go out of our way to help somebody, we will. We have provided free coaching to people that we didn’t even know. Like, we have donated more money than we, you know, it’s like, yeah, we had it, but it was just kind of at the other end. And it’s like, and I don’t, these days when I was younger certainly I’d be like, “But I do all this for other people, why aren’t they doing it for me?” And it’s like, no, no, no, that’s not how the world works, right? You know, it’s, you know, but, but the question is, is like, if I need help, am I asking for help? Right? So, so it’s changed a little bit for me, where I struggle with it a little bit and people will do this too, like in business. So they go into their own business and they’re like, “But I’ve been doing this for 10 years, and then some young chump comes along and she, you know, starts a YouTube channel and has 700 followers because she looks pretty and she’s making money from it, and I’ve been at it for 10 years. And I have like, you know, a tenth of the followers.” I think people can follow into it that way. And I think that people don’t understand, like there’s, yes, there’s algorithms and this and that, but algorithms change. And sometimes it is just pure luck. People get in at the right time with the right audience before the market’s saturated and they develop that following. Like sometimes that’s just what it is. When it comes to, so that’s kind of like the business thing where it’s like, “I’ve done this and when’s my big payout?” And it’s like, you might not have a big payout. There might not be this thing that you’re going to be rewarded somewhere in your life for working hard. And I think where I start to run into issues with this is around the concept of work ethic. Because our generation, so my generation, you’re an X-er, I’m considered a millennial, although I’m an older millennial, right. I was born in 1980. So some people say it ended at 78, some people say it ended at 82 and now there’s this new thing called Zennial, whatever. I don’t know, and none of it’s based on real science anyway,
It’s not, it’s just a kind of like, disregarded social sciences, what I would call it. So here’s the thing, I’m an older millennial, right? And I look at this and we were told that our generation is ungrateful, unloyal, uncommitted on this, on that and whatever. And I’ll tell you why. It’s not that we’re not loyal, that’s not what it is. It’s that loyalty needs to go both ways. And I think for a lot of things that it did, but we watched our parents work their asses off and get let go because they made too much money. Your mom is an example of this. She was the highest paid person in this factory and they let her go. And what did the factory do? They stopped working.
Yep. Her team said, “We’re not working anymore.” They all just sat there and they had to call her in, unpaid to say, “Tell these people to get back to work or we’re going to fire them.” So she goes in and said, “It’s okay, it’s okay, it’s okay.” But they only let her go because she was paid too much. And so it’s like,
A year or something in there
I look at the, this is it. So then the question, like, I look at this, it’s like, I think that heaven’s fallacy, this thing that if you work hard, you will be rewarded. You know, if you go to lengths and you’re extra kind, I think that it is a cognitive distortion and I think it applies in the workplace. How many people do you know that do put in the over time and they never get the promotion. Some do, and it’s like, well, look at who we reward. We reward these people that do this and this and this. And it’s like, no, you don’t, you reward people who do that and that you like.
This is why a piece of my coaching, where my work with certain people, we talk about how they can recognize the game and play it. Right or wrong.
That’s what needs to happen.
Agreed, agreed. Right or wrong.
I did it. I mean I did it for myself.
No, agreed. And I don’t like it and I don’t think it’s right, but I think that it’s what’s required. I have such a, a thing with it. So I think, you know, I think, just in kind of wrapping up here, Kyle, I think one of the things that I would say is really important is that I think people need to check their cognitive distortions, see if you’re being kind because it feels good to you, to do the right thing, or to be kind, maybe kindness isn’t the right thing in some cases. Does it feel good to you to be kind in that moment or you’re doing it because you’re expecting some, you know, life of lottery at the end, right. For me, the life of lottery is that I look back and I know that I will have lived a values-based life.
That’s why I do it. It feels good in the moment.
Absolutely. And, and I try to make sure that I’m doing things that are actually helpful and not things that have the perception of being helpful, you know, like when you donate to certain charities and it’s like 80% of it ends up in the pocket of a CEO, like, what?
Yeah. And I liked the last piece that you mentioned about the values-based side of it because at the end of the day, I could see how some people could say F this, like, if I’m not getting anything out of it anyway, and they don’t really, they’re not grateful and no one really cares and blah, blah, blah, then F it, right? And so, but my thing is it’s back to me, I feel good that I could do that. I feel those moments that we’ve contribute, regardless of if they turn around and wave a flag about it or not, is I was able to it. ‘Cause you’re gonna have some doors, you’re gonna have some helpers and you’re gonna have some takers in life. Like it’s just, we all cohabitate, like we’re all in the same place. That’s why I think it always has to come back to your personal boundaries, in my opinion, right. Is, you know,
How that makes me feel, or even my contribution. Like, there’s something about contribution, ’cause I’m sure there’s some parents, like, “If I had it my way, I wouldn’t have these goddamn five, 10 kids, you know what I mean? But because I have them, I need to take care of them. I need to make sure they’re on that path, right?” I’m sure, I don’t know. Not a parent, so all those parents, don’t come for me, but I’m just sure some of you may have some of those things in your mind that says, “Hey, if I did it my way, maybe I wouldn’t have,” but they stepped into that responsibility. I think you and I have someone we know who found out maybe that they’re a father and they said, “You know what, let me just step into it.” And then just start doing what they feel is the right thing, right?
As if there’ll be some payoff, as if you’ll be able to work it out. You know, it’s a really interesting thing. I look at this and I just, I think that even as coaches, like we know people in our industry that make these promises. This is my fucking problem with our industry. You’ve got the people like, I’m sorry, but like Tony Robbins and like all of these information sellers, you take this program and you’ll make six figures. Do you know how many people take those programs and don’t make six figures? More than 90% of the participants in those programs never achieve. Now that doesn’t mean that
Really? they didn’t get further.
Okay, oh wow. I didn’t know it was that high.
That doesn’t mean they didn’t get a little bit further, which is the win, but it’s all, it’s all this like, you know, well, what are you putting into universe? And it’s, and it’s a bunch of heaven’s fallacy type of stuff. It’s like, if you do these things, including paying for this really expensive program that you could probably learn for free online, you know? And hey, good. Like sometimes paying does create motivation. For sure, like sometimes people’s mindset changes based off of price point. We know this, social research shows this, right? And that kind of thing. But I, this is what drives me nuts about it, is that there’s so many coaches out there saying, “But you know, something good will happen to you.” And it’s like, no, no, no. I say, as a coach, I hope something good happens to you.
But I’m not gonna promise that we’re going to do all this work. I know that you will have more clarity, I know you will have a new perception, I know that you will take action. I know all of those things when you come into my coaching, because if you don’t, we wrap up real fast, especially on the
Right, and chances are
action taking piece.
You’re not going to be at the same level. Like you’re gonna know
Either left or right,
You’ll know within a couple
or which path. sessions if coaching is actually right for you, but I don’t say this thing of like, you know, if you do these really great things, I promise you there’s a big payoff at the end. That’s over promising. And, and I, but people get sold on it. And I think our problem is, is that I consider us to be ethical salespeople, meaning that we try to speak from truth while still going through the sales process and offering value. And it ticks me off that there are people out there making five times as much as me because they’re fucking lying. They’re lying about the promises that people will,
that don’t get fulfilled. And it’s like, well, sorry, that’s what the contract said. $76,000 to enter this Mastermind. You know, who I’m talking about? This wonderful woman down south went into this Mastermind, she dropped 75 or $76,000 and it was like a fucking joke. And she’s like,
And they kept taking the money, that’s the worst
And they kept taking the money.
Yeah. That’s the part that got-
You know, and that was her retirement money. Like I felt, and it’s like buyer beware, but it’s like, you know what? It’s like false promise, false promises.
Yeah, and some of them are just better at that sales technique or what have you mean, you and I, we’ve had a conversation and I think that’s a whole different day, but we, we were mindful that we don’t want to spam people. We don’t want to do this thing. We don’t wanna- But then we hear from the professionals that that’s the only way to get it out there. You have to do these email things, you have to these posts of things. ‘Cause that’s what we’re trying to do is to get in front, because we know what happens when we get in front of people. Like we know, from based on what you just said, the results and they think they feel, I mean, one of our newest clients just said, “I cannot believe what you guys have done for my team in just a short space of time.” And I’m, and of course, we’re just like, “Ah, if we can get more of those types of teams to get that, you know, where things are just easier for them.” Right? And it’s for everybody, it’s for us, it’s for them. So I liked that fallacy pieces around being mindful. I think that’s the checking in, right? Like you said so.
Well, I think this- I think this is the inspired action Kyle, is to look in your life where you’re making an investment because of the promise of something that may or may not come. And we do do this in life. We will make investments. I’m not saying don’t do it, I’m saying, just take a look at it, be mindful of it, see if it’s a heaven’s fallacy and if it is, check on your self esteem and your self image issue. Because that’s actually what this is about.
[Narrator] It’s our goal to build a global community of inspired action takers. And we can only do that with your help. So if you love inspired action, please leave a review on your favorite podcasting app and share this on your socials. You’ve heard from us. Now we want to hear from you. Go to inspiredactionpodcast.ca and tell us what is the inspired action you took this week? Next week on Inspired Action for Imperfect Humans, all strengths in overdrive become weaknesses anyway, like, like, like if we over-focus like, like it’s important to focus on your strengths, but like sometimes people’s greatest strength has a, it’s a double-edged sword,
There’s a dark side to it.